Important!! Please Read!!

Hi,
I have had an idea brewing in my head and I want some feedback from the whole LS. This is very important too me and I want your guy's honest opinions on what I should do no matter how harsh they may be.

I have been thinking about starting an Under-18 version of our LS for those of us in the game who may not be 18 but still want the Homeyness of CE. This LS has really become my Home-away-from-home over the years and you guys have gotten me through a lot of stuff in my life and I want to bring that same feeling too as many people in this game as possible. My LS would be directly linked to CE in every way. We would share our Code of Conduct, I would create a name that has or refers to CE (Hopefully with your help.)

I have talked too Luna about this and she has given me the OK! (and some sound advice.) But i want the opinion of everyone here, because you guys are really like my family and that is what matters to me. This will be a process I will probably resent sometime in the future but i think that it is important to bring back what FFXI has lost over the years, a common courtesy that is shared no matter your LVL, Rank, Job, and/or RL Age. I think if we begin with the younger generation of this game we could start a chain that would spread out and maybe, just maybe, bring FFXI back too it's former glory of friendship and shared goals.

This is not an overnight thing that I just realized but an On-going look into my life and a study of what has made me who I am today. I am getting emotional sitting here and thinking through all of the good and yes the bad times i have had in this game and I want to let everyone be able to have this kind-of experience. So, Please give me your ideas/ suggestions/ "Words of Wisdom" so I can begin, or end this process.

Thank You and I Love You All,
Eric (Zetfih)


(Send me a PM if you want too say something that you don't want too post)

just want to make a couple of points.

Zetfih wrote:

but i think that it is important to bring back what FFXI has lost over the years, a common courtesy that is shared no matter your LVL, Rank, Job, and/or RL Age.

we've never discriminated against anyone for lvl, rank, job, etc and i know it may seem like we do with an age restriction, but honestly it's a liability issue. sure people under 18 don't HAVE to come in the LS and they DO have a choice, however, parents of these kids may not think in that regard and should they happen to look over the shoulder of their underage child in an LS that oftentimes can be crude and talks about adult themes--in a joking manner, never in a pornographic sense--then things could be misconstrued and trouble could arise from that. i'm not saying that you think CE has discriminated, but i am just making it clear WHY we have an age restriction.

it's not easy running a linkshell ... it takes a lot of work ... creates a lot of frustration ... don't believe me, ask luna. xD this is something that can be discussed but, honestly, i'm not sure how i feel about another CE LS running around out there, under 18 or not. that may sound weird, but CE has been around for a while and while we've had our rough patches, we've always been associated with helping people and being a generally friendly atmosphere. when you start creating other CE's that are populated by different people, then that dynamic is changed and if one LS named CosmicEnigma(whatever) does something to piss off one person, then it comes down to CosmicEnigma being associated with that other LS and it could cause damage to our reputation as an LS. perhaps this is a silly viewpoint for me to have, but it can and DOES happen and i really don't want to see CE's name sullied by another LS. please don't take this as any sort of criticism on you or your idea or that i think you will ruin CE's rep., but you asked for an honest opinion and i'm giving it. like i said, perhaps this can be discussed more in the future, but as for right now i'm on the fence.

I totally agree with Dionys

Creating onther "Diet" CosmicEnigma may sound nice but many of our members have put years of work to get us where we are now. I'm coming up to my second year with CE in May. CE has NEVER discriminated any people for things like levels and jobs. if that was the case I'd not be here after almost 2 years my highest job is still only 34 BST.
We're not the largest of linkshells but are slowly expanding, We've had our ups and downs but we have banded together and faced everything side by side. some people have left and tried to tarnish our shell's name. Another linkshell isn't the way to go. The age restriction is there to protect minors, granted we are crude at times but it is always said in jest. It wasnt an action taken to exclude people but many youngsters also aren't mature enough to follow the creed anyway.
We're a VERY diverse group and have people from all walks of life, many of us interact outside of CE and know each other on personal levels. There are some things that CE members know about me that I wish to not be boadcast around remora and the same goes for some others.

We constantly strive to maintain a high standard of behaviour to others and with time constraints many of us at times have just about been able to dedicate time to CE and another group would just spread us out too thinly.
2008 is planned to be a big year for CE and we are heading in a fresh new direction,

All it takes is one bad thing for our name to become mud and I'd rather not be associated with another group that could potentially destroy the work many have put their time and money towards making our group what it is now. Remember even though we're known for being the nice guys of remora it's the bad things that people tend to remember.

I've waffled on enough now so I'll leave it

I hope you understand why I'm against it, I'll see you all ingame

love Steph / Galen xxx

While i greatly respect Dionys (and his opinions and concerns) as well as Galen I have a different view of the matter. When I read this portion of Zet's message:

Zetfih wrote:

i think that it is important to bring back what FFXI has lost over the years, a common courtesy that is shared no matter your LVL, Rank, Job, and/or RL Age.

I read it as being directed at all of Final Fantasy XI or all of Remora and not a referance to CosmicEnigma itself.

I completely agree with Zetfih on this. Over the last year or two I've noticed more and more rude and selfish people playing FFXI. When I first started, it seemed anyone I ran into was willing to offer assistance. There was a general courtesy and always respect. It feels like Remora has been poisoned. I think what Zet was trying to say is he'd like to turn that around as new players enter the game.

Perhaps my view is skewed, but it's my opinion.

As far as Zet's idea to start a branch of CE; I support him. I don't think it would be any different than when we were discussing a CosmicEnigma Dynamis Linkshell.

It's not hard to see that Zetfih has a great love of CosmicEnigma. It seems to me that all he really wants to do is have the ability to share his positive experience with all he meets and with an age restriction, he can't always do that. I understand his want to share CE with people under the age of 18 because he himself is under the age of 18 (and is the only one as far as I know). With that being said, I wouldn't want anyone to think that I'm interested in changing the 18+ rule of our existing CosmicEnigma. I think it's a very good rule and set for a very good reason.

I support you in your quest to expand CosmicEnigma and "share the love" Zet. I wish you luck in your endavors.

Dionys wrote:

I'm not saying that you think CE has discriminated, but i am just making it clear WHY we have an age restriction.

I know why and i wasn't talking about our LS in anyway I was saying that these are the things that our LS fights against and i want a younger generation to have a safe and secure place where they can talk, help, be helped, and have the same opportunities i had in our LS growing up with this game.

Thank You Guys i appreciate your opinions and i see all of your reasons and will tale them into consideration. I would strive too not bring any sort of "Bad Name" too CE.. So maybe i could just create my own LS with the same standards and ideas as CE and that would be that.. No "Bad Names" or "Tainting" going on. This would hurt me dearly as i love all of you and love the LS, but if this is what you chose i would deal with it and make some adjustments too my plan.

Thanks,
Zet

Dionys wrote:

i'm not saying that you think CE has discriminated, but i am just making it clear WHY we have an age restriction.

i knew he wasn't referring to CE itself, i was clarifying and trying to stress the reason behind the age restriction. as for your thoughts on the LS idea, dru, i DO actually think it is an excellent idea ... with a different name, however. having a CE Dynamis LS is a bit different than an underage LS, in my opinion, as with a dynamis or sky LS, it will mainly be full of CE members anyway, but with an underage shell, i can't speak for everyone, but i personally don't see myself as being a member of that LS. dunno.

Zetfih wrote:

Dionys wrote:

I'm not saying that you think CE has discriminated, but i am just making it clear WHY we have an age restriction.

I know why and i wasn't talking about our LS in anyway I was saying that these are the things that our LS fights against and i want a younger generation to have a safe and secure place where they can talk, help, be helped, and have the same opportunities i had in our LS growing up with this game.

Thank You Guys i appreciate your opinions and i see all of your reasons and will tale them into consideration. I would strive too not bring any sort of "Bad Name" too CE.. So maybe i could just create my own LS with the same standards and ideas as CE and that would be that.. No "Bad Names" or "Tainting" going on. This would hurt me dearly as i love all of you and love the LS, but if this is what you chose i would deal with it and make some adjustments too my plan.

Thanks,
Zet

let me start off by saying that i did NOT post that in an attempt to start an argument.

zet, you're making it sound like you're being booted from the LS. you're not. i think you're a valuable member and i don't want you taking what i've said in a negative sense. i wasn't saying YOU will sully the name of CosmicEnigma, but let's say your LS takes off and it's called CosmicEnigmaKids or something and you get an 11 year old in it who walks around jeuno and does one of these spiffy deals.

/em farts on <t>.
/em pisses on <t>.

etc ... it's not YOU doing it, but someone in the shell you've created with CE's name to it is acting like a clown and it would be difficult to regulate that sort of thing. we've had members of CE acting like fools in shouts in jeuno and they've been spoken to about it. we don't need a stigmata like that. i have faith that YOU would hold to the values of the creed, but you can't speak for all the members of your LS.

This is why i hate words.....
LoL i wasn't thinking that I was getting booted or anything but it would be ME that is sullying our name because it would be my responsibility too stress the importance of our code and ideals. I would be the leader and therefor would be taking all responsibility to up-hold CE's Name and vision.

well, as a leader of an LS, yes you would bear some responsibility for the members of your shell, however ... you can't possibly bear ALL responsibility. people who play this game 9/10 times should be responsible for their OWN actions and you are only able to do so much. i hope you can understand my hesitation in creating a sister-shell bearing the name or likeness of CE ... there was no malice in my words and certainly no ill-will, i just think the chances are greater that something can damage our rep when you add another shell to the equation. hard enough to monitor one shell, but two would be even more so.

I have already said i would make adjustments too the name idea... And trying not too spoil CE's rep is very important too me, because i want too do the exact opposite.. i want to give CE the reputation as one of the best in Remora...

I guess I will put my 2 cents in for whatever it's worth. I don't think that the idea of having an under 18 LS with the same creed and values as CE is a bad thing. I actually think it's very noble of you to try and foster that type of environment where open discussion is encouraged for younger players. However, I don't think that the name should bear any connection to CE for a few specific reasons. First is that it may create confusion. People know the name CE, creating another LS with a similar name would be a bad idea. Second is the potential problem of policing it could create for you Zet. WHen you are talking about people under the age of 18 you are talking about people with vastly different levels of maturity. What one 15 year old views as approprite language and discussion material could vary to the point of absurdity with another person of the same age. By creating an LS strictly to allow minors in I think you would be creating a neverending headache for yourself that might not ultimately be worth the time or effort. Younger people in general tend to not take constructive criticism very well and may not take well to the idea of you telling them what they can or cannot talk about or do. And please don't take that personally, I'm not saying that all younger people are like that, take you for example, but the generality still fits for a majority of younger players.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents, take it for what it is, just my opinion. Ultimately I think that the final decision should be Luna's. Even though many others put a tremendous amount of time and effort into making this an amazing Linkshell, it ultimately is still her baby to do with as she pleases. If she is fine with mentoring you and helping you, with or without the actual name CE attached, then we will have to respect that. You will also have to respect her decision, however, if after reading the input from fellow LS members she decides that she is not on board with creating another branch of CE.

Either way I would hate to lose you as a member of CE and hope that you realize that it is a huge compliment to your maturity and integrity that you are one of the few if not the only person in the LS that is a minor. See you In Game ^.^

Thank You!
I understand the problems you are presenting and am prepared too do whatever is necessary too carry this out with as much of a headache as will be given or required. And yes one of the reasons I created this was too help Luna decide if she wanted me too go on with this. As I have said before, I AM willing too use a name other than something CE related if need be but the whole reason i wanted too create this is so I could bolster the future ranks of CE when the people in my LS turned 18... This would help w/ the people understanding what is expected of them as members of CE and would also help you as it would reduce the headache of explaining it too them.. and this is just an idea i can live without going forward with it.. i just wanted to see what you guys wanted before i did anything rash... Please do not take that last comment as an "I don't care about it" comment because i don't want people saying i don't care about it when i really do..-

After reading the other post I"m kind of swayed on what to think now,

One part of me thinks that we would potentially be depleteinng our numbers or choosing which pearl to hold or have on us. I also think if we were to start doing Dynamis runs, would it really need another pearl to run things?
People who dont have much of an idea about dynamis and how things are run should still be entitled to know whats going on as a way to prepare them for when they finally get to that stage. allthough maybe having a pearl for the actual run would be good as then we don't get spammed with random chat.

As many of us agree 2008 is potentially a big year for us as recently we've become more stable and matured as a linkshell.
Also as somebody who hasnt achieved much in game "I mainly log on to chat" I've never felt excluded from anything.
I do alot of work with new players I'm always found around the starting cities and the dunes helping people out. It's part of our creed to try and put the love and respect among players that was once within the game and many to feel has been lost. I've even at times sent them in the direction of sackholders and said I'd give reference for them. Not all new players or minors share the same ideas as us.

I think its great that you wish to put so much work into the group.
I dont think we'd like to lose time with Zetfih on CE also,

I do think its very good idea but I dont think it helps CE in many ways, Granted CE sort of gets new young members but still they are still segregated from CE, By the fact they are within another shell that was created to prevent that from happening to them. I also think that the members of the other group would feel penalised in some way, I know as a teenager I would have thought "Why aren't I good enough for the older group" I played with a guy called Jaffa a really good bst we lvled from 16/20 duoing on bst, it turned out he was 11 playing on his brothers mule. So the only thing really different was the age because he was extremely mature and I have to admit it was the most fun I'd had in the game.

it's mainly for maturity reasons and to protect the child in general. We as a group choose to speak freely in the linkshell as likeminded individuals we've had plenty of great discussions, some pointless ones and some dirty one's hehe. But the age limit is there because we not only choose to not expose a child to some things that happen within our chats, We do it to respect the parents of that child also.

Many of us in CE as parents ourselves would agree even if the child is willing to see these words the parent may not wish themn to, In these times it takes alot for a parent to let their child use the internet alone. I wouldnt feel too good for a kid not being aloud to play because of something we'd said.

The group for younger members is a nice idea but by the time they become old enough to join us, They surely would have friends where they are, I for one wouldnt want to leave you guys.
I think Zetfih would just become stuck with another linkshell because both groups are built on a basis of friendship, trust and Gather Together! ness.! lol
I don't think they'd want to be seperated in the same way many of us wouldn't like.

Wow.. Thank you Galen... and everyone else. I have had a few people say that "They wouldn't want too lose me as a member", but really I'd kind be like the guilds recruiter/screener and I would still talk too you all in the forums and In-Game. About the "not wanting too be separated" Issue, the wonderful thing about this game is that we all know who each other are and can call upon each other in times of crisis or need. There will still be a forum and when the people they don't want too leave come of age they too will move up too CE and be re-united...

As a permanent sackholder.. lol Shellholder. I have turned away many great players from joining CE due to their age. That's a bad feeling, but at the same time I will never change the 18+ rule. It is there for our protection and the minors. Time spent in game is my going out to the bar. I don't go out and party. I stay in and party. I know I have the mouth of a sailor and wont be changing or editing myself anytime soon.

I do like the idea of having a CEjr to refer younger people to. A place to be supported and mature into a great older player as well. Instead of growing older and burning out on the same abuse put out by many other LS. It would be just as hard for Zetfih to enforce the rules as it is for me to. He would need a good support system. He will discover who he can trust and work closely with as he goes. Running a successful Ls is alot of trial and error, but mostly stubborness and sticking with it.
I do see the negative though. But just as with any linkshell one asshole can ruin a good time. It has happened in here where members did things that negatively reflected on CE. One perfect example.

I was in the Dunes giving raises and random help. When I hear a shout from one of CE's members offering to help people with subjob items for 10k.. I was digusted. I was there all day trying to build a good helpful reputation for CE and this asshole ruined in one shout. I know before I had my subjob there was no way I had 10k to spare. The worst part was.. he was going to get subjob items for his brother anyway. He jsut wanted to make gil too...

There is already of offshoot of CE.. but one we had no choice in or say. Ronrhodes moved to Valefor server and made a clone of Ce.. right down to the name. He wasn't following our recruitment rules or even our code of conduct. It was done first then we were informed later. I respect Zetfih alot more for taking our thoughts and opinions into consideration before making any moves. It shows your consideration and maturity. Which has made it easier for me to support your idea.

The members from the CEjr shell wouldn't be forced to move up.. they can stay there if they choose to remain around close friends, but would be given the option to move to the adults table(so to speak).. lol

Keep in mind that just because they are young players it doesn't mean they are new players. Alot of really young people have high lvl chars too. I think some worry that we would be drained to help out another LS with their everyday hunting and small things like coffer key hunts, lower missions. (things that a few people could accomplish) I don't want this to happen. I would like to be able to depend on each other for the larger events though. Some of the many things in game that require a alliance to accomplish.

Current members of Ce wouldn't need to have a pearl for CEjr. There would be no choosing between the two shells for us. I would ask to be a sackholder so that I can give out a pearl to any underage people who approach me about Ce and to assist Zet in crowd control. lol yes, there are times as a sackholder you feel like the riot police.
CE has had the idea in the past to do a dynamis sky sea shell. It would be a seperate pearl used for that type events. Just like any other Ls of that type is not for socializing but for getting business done. But this CE sky sea dynamis shell is still for the future. We have more growing to do first.

I would rather the underage Ce be named something more like CEjunior. Something that does reflect our relationship but at the same time protect our reputation to a degree.

I do support Zetfih in this idea. As does Gunner as well. There are still many details that we would need to discuss before moving further.

i've always considered you a great shell leader, luna, and i support your decision in this as well as offer my support to zetfih should he need it. perhaps i'm still a bit wary, but it's hard not to be when CE is my home, but you have been here ... you know what it takes and i support you 100%.

you may wonder why this change in tone with me. well, it just so happens that i was approached today about giving someone a pearl and, come to find out, they were 15. lol, so of course i felt like an ass saying "sorry, we're 18+ onry." and it got me thinking that, though i did support the idea of an 18 and under shell (just w/o CEs name to it), perhaps it wouldn't be a terrible idea to incorporate a CEJr into our fold.

it's funny how a perception can change when the thing you are thinking about--or discussing in a thread--happens. and it happens more times than can be counted and i do feel a sense of regret for having to turn players away from a 'home' in-game simply because they aren't old enough.

just call me john kerry ... the flip-flopper! xD

Thank You Luna and Dio you have no idea what your support means too me... Especially you Luna since you are ultimately the deciding factor in if i do this or not and yes it will take weeks maybe months of planning but I am prepared to do whatever i need too do too get this done if you want too go forward with it.. i just want to wait this thread out a few more days until I can get feedback from a few other people in the LS..

Your patience in this matter is yet another reason I support you as the leader of CEjunior. It will take immense patience to deal with so many different personalities.

kinda like high school..... Lol

Guys, please if you haven't posted yet please do Luna and I still want your inputs

Well I would like to add. I do understand the "Chivalry has gone astray". I remember back in the old days, a Mage/Healer would not pass you up if it looked liked you was gonna get dead. Nowadays the limey cheese rats will, stop, watch you die, then continue on there business.

Ugh, it's so true. I was partying in Garlaige Citadel last night and someone needed Gate #1 opened. Someone in my party shouted 50k. I of course told him I b-listed someone else for that and if you want me to ever heal you again tonight you'll stand on the platform to open the door for him. This was a veteran player who I think was just trying to be funny cause he did open the door a few times for people that came in. The biggest problem was that a new player was also in our group and thought that that was the way it should work. After the more veteran player left. one more person came through while we were still there and the new player decided he would take up demanding 50k. Hopefully my message got through when I said someday you may be the one needing to get through the gate....are you gonna want to pay 50k just for someone to stand on a pedastal where they already are? At least he went and opened the thing after that. ANyway just another example of the asshats that we try to avoid